tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5407840403433424940.post8777076144670179571..comments2023-06-12T00:43:52.680-07:00Comments on Minoan language blog: What do the Minoan Linear A tablets tell us about Cretan geography? - Part IIAndras Zekehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15850805830621290277noreply@blogger.comBlogger11125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5407840403433424940.post-8580710797916929552011-07-03T04:01:45.538-07:002011-07-03T04:01:45.538-07:00Yeah, that is definitely a possiblity to compare A...Yeah, that is definitely a possiblity to compare A-SA-SA-RA-ME with the Hittite word <i>isḫassara-</i>, expecially that the latter has no really convincing IE etymology at all. However, there is also a chance of an alternative correspondence (another loanword-theory); namely that it would be a descendant of H.Luwian <i>asḫarmis</i> = 'sacrifice' (especially, animal sacrifice). That would make sense, if I-PI-NA-MA has anything to do with bloodletting. That would leave the word DU-PU2-RE to fill the role of a name-substituent (title, such as 'lord' or 'lady'). And I was pleased to see that it re-appears in Eteocretan as part of the phrase TUPRMĒRIĒIA (probably <i>Tupṛ mē-Riēya</i>, based on Minoan parallels). But I do not want to rush so much ahead. I am just prepairing my next post, so please, have patience.Andras Zekehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15850805830621290277noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5407840403433424940.post-37012457932464446052011-07-02T22:15:45.260-07:002011-07-02T22:15:45.260-07:00"I therefore restrict my orginal objection to...<b><i>"I therefore restrict my orginal objection to the fact that it cannot be a proper name."</i></b><br /><br />Hunh? It's meaning would "quickly become overstrained" as a proper name but not as an epithet?? I don't follow. Your assumptions need further justification.<br /><br />My opinion is that <b>Asasarama</b> is likely borrowed from Luwian, but not necessarily a meaningful epithet in Minoan itself where it would simply be a foreign theonym. It's possible that a term <b>*asasara</b> 'lady' was imported into Minoan too but this isn't something we need necessarily assume.<br /><br /><b><i>"[...] (after all, the Greek priests likely would have given offerings to Zeus, but not Zeusian offerings)."</i></b><br /><br />Etruscan uses the genitive to convey the recipient of an offering. So "I give (a libation) to Nethuns" is expressed literally as "I give (a libation) of Nethuns" or "I give Nethuns's (libation)" (<b>Mi un Nethunsl tura.</b>).<br /><br />If an inherited Proto-Aegean quirk, I'd expect this same <i>genitive of the recipient</i> in Minoan. At the same time, considering the repurposing of adjectival suffixes in Anatolian for new genitive forms, I suggest that this grammatical pattern may have been rubbing off on the Keftian population too.Glen Gordonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02440249042894225949noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5407840403433424940.post-45512813648151428422011-06-29T13:06:54.830-07:002011-06-29T13:06:54.830-07:00You are basically right in this line of thoughts. ...You are basically right in this line of thoughts. I checked the Hittite phrase <i>isḫassara-</i> (='lady') - the most popular parallel to the cited Minoan phrase up to date. Much my surprise, it <i>does</i> admit further formatives, e.g. the term <i>isḫassarwant-</i> = 'lordly'. This means, that for whatever A-SA-SA-RA-ME meant, an epithet cannot be completely excluded. I therefore restrict my orginal objection to the fact that it cannot be a <i>proper name</i>. Well, it <i>can</i>, but its meaning would quickly become overstrained in the given context (after all, the Greek priests likely would have given <b>offerings <i>to</i> Zeus</b>, but <b>not Zeusian offerings</b>). There are other explanations as well - some pretty enticing ones - but I do not want to rush ahead, as it will be the topic of my very next post!Andras Zekehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15850805830621290277noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5407840403433424940.post-7998583060603389682011-06-27T21:54:12.705-07:002011-06-27T21:54:12.705-07:00Bayndor: "Here we find a version with an *-na...<b>Bayndor: <i>"Here we find a version with an *-na ending - that is suspiciously the same as the well-known adjectival -na formative. If it is true, then a theonym is meaningless here. (After all, who would say 'great-goddess-ly' ?)"</i></b><br /><br />But you leap to an unproven conclusion that this is specifically an *adjective* formant. Guided by Etruscan grammar, nouns and adjectives are often indistinguishable in form so that <b>mlaχ</b> may mean "blessed" or "blessed one" in precisely the same way as Latin <b>bonum</b> may mean both "good" (neuter adjective) or "good thing" (neuter noun), dependent on the syntax. <br /><br />In case you doubt, I give the examples of adjective <b>aisna</b> 'godly, divine' (from <b>ais</b> 'god') and noun <b>śuθina</b> 'tomb offering' (from <b>śuθi</b> 'tomb'). In some contexts, the former word must even be treated as a noun (nb. <b>aisunal</b> '<i>of</i> the god-offering') because adjectives that modify nouns remain entirely undeclined for case.<br /><br />And fortunately to add to my argument, Etruscan <b>-na</b> is even found in divine epithets too. <a href="http://paleoglot.blogspot.com/2008/06/is-falcon-or-hawk-symbol-of-vanth.html" rel="nofollow">I mentioned one such epithet already on my blog</a>, <b>Sal Aracune-ta</b>, found on a mirror next to a winged female who is likely Vanth which I've managed to translate as "The noble one of the hawks" (nb. Hesychius' gloss of the Tyrrhenian word for 'hawk' or 'falcon', <a href="http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Da%29%2Frakos" rel="nofollow">ἄρακος</a> < Etruscan <b>*araχ</b>).<br /><br />So back to the related Minoan language, its <b>-na</b> may identically be considered a noun <i>*and*</i> adjective formant with a meaning of pertinence, derivation or origin. Therefore I treat YA-SA-SA-RA-MA-NA in the same way I treat the above Etruscan epithet and translate it as 'of Asasarama, pertaining to Asasarama', a kind of "adjective-like" word that goes with the main noun of the NP, TA-NU-MU-TI. The preceding accusative distal demonstrative (= Etruscan <b>tan</b> 'that, the') establishes this as the grammatical object of a verb, undoubtedly a verb of offering.Glen Gordonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02440249042894225949noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5407840403433424940.post-67092574144036542982011-05-27T05:54:05.108-07:002011-05-27T05:54:05.108-07:00I can spend some words on it. Linear A inscription...I can spend some words on it. Linear A inscriptions will be not a secret anymore, I am already on the road, some words are very clear to me. I am referred to "Stone libation formula inscriptions". Parietal frescoes does confirm my painstaking work. And the result is so simple and logic. A good view is Robert B. Koehl pamphlet, available on-line, for free. I begun with "Pre-Greek loans in Greek" by R.S.P. Beekes, and then I went to Linear A inscriptions; the result is quite satisfactory.Zeushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09098492626826034374noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5407840403433424940.post-29164482486103563842011-05-26T16:10:13.273-07:002011-05-26T16:10:13.273-07:00Just a little update on this topic: I have been ey...Just a little update on this topic: I have been eyeing the photographs of that pot, catalogued as KNZa10, to get the best transcription possible. In the end of the day, I came to the conclusion, that the damaged sign could also be <b>SI •</b>. If Godart and his friend based their facsimile on this very photo, they were very mistaken: it really seems that the outline of the SI sign is not just a random crack. <br /><br />Nevertheless, it is now it falls to me to post the corrected facsimile of this very object. I shall also add APZa2, where I also corrected a number of errors of transcription (e.g. it reads <b>I-PI-NA-MI-NA-TE</b> there, not just I-PI-MI-NA-TE as J.Y. writes - and KU-PA3-NA-TU-NA-TE is actually <b>I-KU-PA3-NA-TU-NA-TE</b>). There are so many things to be put to right!Andras Zekehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15850805830621290277noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5407840403433424940.post-14776265435208312982011-05-24T13:25:50.073-07:002011-05-24T13:25:50.073-07:00To sum up, I would put my "five cents" o...To sum up, I would put my "five cents" on one of the following readings. Undoubtedly, the table is very incomplete (only one corner was found, that could mean that 1/3 to 1/4 part of the text is what we know). Note that both its start- and endpoint is incomplete (I can still see the corner of a sign that ended the word before TA-NU-MU-TI). I also made use of the fact that a number of words in linear A ending in -O seem to be past participles (e.g. KU-RO, KI-RO). The prefix particle <i>*i-</i> is here interpreted as a connector (..., that...)<br /><br />Reading#1: [...the devout followers...] this(acc)-(they)give, that-[A-SA-SA-RA-M]-ly Daos(city) [DE-DU-WA-T]-ed, that-[...].<br /><br />Reading#2: [...the gift-bearers offer...] this(acc)-gift, that-[A-SA-SA-RA-M]-ly Daos(city) [DE-DU-WA-T]-ed, that-[...].<br /><br />Reading#3: [...the devout followers...] this(acc)-(they)give, that-[A-SA-SA-RA-M]-ly (at/of)Daos(city) [DU-WA-T]-ed, that-[...].<br /><br />Reading#4: [..the gift-bearers offer..] this(acc)-gift, that-[A-SA-SA-RA-M]-ly (at/of)Daos(city) [DU-WA-T]-ed, that-[...].Andras Zekehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15850805830621290277noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5407840403433424940.post-32329980520887003332011-05-24T11:47:07.524-07:002011-05-24T11:47:07.524-07:00I checked the original specimen to get the best tr...I checked the original specimen to get the best transliteration. It turns out that there is clearly a missing (damaged) sign within the sequence DA-WA-[?]-DU-WA-TO. Based on its visible ends, it was either [TI•], [E•] or [•DE] (the latter rendering is suggested by the facsimile of Godart & Olivier). Nevertheless, a breaking point is probably present there. In either case, DA-WA-TI, DA-WA-E or DA-WA seem to be grammatically valid words. In the above sequence, the usual order of libation formulae appears to be perturbed: the first word (α) is directly followed by a modified γ term, thereupon comes an unknown phrase (maybe that's word β, typically a place-name). Note that there is no word δ (no U-NA-KA-NA-SI), ε (I-PI-NA-MA) or ζ (SI-RU-TE), so either the verb is to be found at the (now broken off) end, ?-DU-WA-TO is verbal, or the phrase TA-NU-MU-TI itself contains that verb (note the accusative case). It somehow resembles the short inscription PRZa1 (TA-NA-SU-TE-[?]-KE • SE-TO-I-JA • A-SA-SA-RA-ME), where the first phrase more or less obviously contains a verb. Anyhow, I am a bit sceptic about the usual reading of (J)A-SA-SA-RA-ME. Here we find a version with an <i>*-na</i> ending - that is suspiciously the same as the well-known adjectival <i>-na</i> formative. If it is true, then a theonym is meaningless here. (After all, who would say "<i>great-goddess-ly</i>" ?)Andras Zekehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15850805830621290277noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5407840403433424940.post-56167262747936894252011-05-23T21:29:31.334-07:002011-05-23T21:29:31.334-07:00I assume you specifically are referring to KN Za 1...I assume you specifically are referring to <a href="http://www.people.ku.edu/~jyounger/LinearA/misctexts.html" rel="nofollow">KN Za 10</a>: <b>]-TA-NU-MU-TI • YA-SA-SA-RA-MA-NA • DA-WA-[•]-DU-WA-TO • I-JA[</b>.<br /><br />I've been translating it so far as <b>*Tan muti [DA-WA] [DU-WA-TO] iya.</b> = 'The pit of (goddess) Asasarama [...] here.' Or alternatively <b>*Tan umuti...</b> 'the dedication...'. At any rate, given that avenue of translation, I'm skeptical how a city-name might fit within this sentence.Glen Gordonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02440249042894225949noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5407840403433424940.post-84570533108092011162011-05-23T15:37:00.827-07:002011-05-23T15:37:00.827-07:00This is a difficult task. Especially because neith...This is a difficult task. Especially because neither <i>Kommos</i>, nor <i>Amyklaion</i> recurs in Linear A or B. From the little what I understand of the Linear A tablets, the places NA-TI, TA-TI and MA-DI may have the closest link with Phaistos (PA-I-TO). They are all mentioned together on tablet HT97. Unfortunately, very little can be said about the first two. Now with MA-DI, there is another problem: This settlement should have been fairly large, slightly more distant and significant on its own. I am uncertain if the goods produced by MA-DI (e.g. the pigs, sheep and goats) would mesh well with the environment of Kommos. But the idea cannot be completely dismissed, either.<br /><br /> Please note that the name of Haghia Triada is <i>not</i> mentioned in the local archives. But the Knossos Linear B tablets tell us about a place called <i>Daos</i> (DA-WO), always paired with Phaistos. The only clue about its Minoan form comes from a (damaged) libation table at Knossos, containing a word in Linear A with the stem DA-WA (logically, this refers to the donor, and agrees with the Linear B form well).Andras Zekehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15850805830621290277noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5407840403433424940.post-83378645473900510332011-05-22T13:42:24.960-07:002011-05-22T13:42:24.960-07:00Mr Zeke,
Can you find any clues as to what the pla...Mr Zeke,<br />Can you find any clues as to what the place name for the port of Phaistos and Agia Triada may be in Linear A or B inscriptions that you have studied? Evans called it Komo. Excavator J. Shaw has continued with that term Kommos and considered Amyklaion.<br />James StratisJameshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08425754239047135506noreply@blogger.com