tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5407840403433424940.post7155796690455143986..comments2023-06-12T00:43:52.680-07:00Comments on Minoan language blog: Tracking the evolution of the 'KA' and 'QE' signs of Minoan Hieroglyphic and Linear scriptsAndras Zekehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15850805830621290277noreply@blogger.comBlogger9125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5407840403433424940.post-66620369207667217702011-09-12T12:11:52.956-07:002011-09-12T12:11:52.956-07:00The Indus script sign for 'ka' looks like ...The Indus script sign for 'ka' looks like an x, and may be the source for the Minoan 'ka'. Also Indus 'rya' resembles Minoan 're' and is likely the origin for it, Indus script being the older writing system.<br /><br />http://harappanwriting.piczo.comS. M. Sullivanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01974978228713968521noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5407840403433424940.post-8555019076643713992010-10-30T22:21:22.077-07:002010-10-30T22:21:22.077-07:00RE: *322 - apparently, I was so unimpressed with i...RE: *322 - apparently, I was so unimpressed with its rendering on HT11 that I didn't even include it in my facsimiles.<br /><br />Upon reviewing the original photograph of HT11, yeah ... even there, it seems to operate like a logogram, in the same way that a sub- or super-script is used with AB120 and AB188. AB53 looks like an afterthought superscript ...Kimhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02871562029141632326noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5407840403433424940.post-60904137636748784582010-10-20T14:26:50.514-07:002010-10-20T14:26:50.514-07:00I shall continue the debate with a few more though...I shall continue the debate with a few more thoughts. I do not say that a circle with a cross in it is not a good way to represent the concept of "town". We can find examples for that even as far as the mysterious Indus Script. Evan among Anatolian Hieroglyphs, there exists a sign (Ana *291 = LI3) that is highly similar to a wheel, and could possibly depict a "town". But the problem with this approach is the same as with the "wheel theory": there is no "town" sign among Cretan Hieroglyphs, either!<br /><br />To spend a few final words on Pha *17, which is indeed the weakest link in the theory: Well, it <i>could</i> be Lin AB *70 = KO as well, in case the latter is not an image of some elongated plant seed (e.g. <i>coriander</i> = Mycenean KO-RI-JA-DA-NA, that could be a name of Minoan origin - note the ending <i>*-na</i>). Not that it would challange the main theory: because that does not make Pha *12 a better candidate for a 'sieve'.Andras Zekehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15850805830621290277noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5407840403433424940.post-79945910310763044022010-10-20T13:58:30.610-07:002010-10-20T13:58:30.610-07:00Well, this is a bit too many answers to handle the...Well, this is a bit too many answers to handle them at once, but I shall try to do my best.<br /><br />As for the term PU-RE-KA-NA, I suggest it to be a proper name (unsure if it is a given name, a name of a particular gens or a smaller town / region). I say this because it is a hapax. Many terms do recur on seals, sometimes even in a fixed order: these should denote titles. On the other hand, single and never-repeating words are likely to be names.<br /><br />As for its structure, I believe the ending <i>*-na</i> can be a good suggestion. We have to keep in mind, that PU2 is not really exchangeable with PU in Linear A, and the sequence PU2-RE is never found alone, but mostly as an integral part of the word DU-PU2-RE (reconstructed as <i>*tuppre</i>, c.f. the sequence <i>tuprmerieia</i> in Eteocretan). The only other occurrence is PU2-RE-JA (e.g. PK Za 16), and I do not know if the -JA part is separable or not.<br /><br />KA-NA, on the other hand, may sometimes indeed stand for <i>*kna</i>, compare U-NA-KA-NA-SI (SY Za2) with TA-NU-NI-KI-NA (PL Zf1). The two can only be fitted if we propose the structures <i>*una(r)-kna-si</i> and <i>*tan-uni-kna</i>. Nevertheless, I still find the suffixation in <i>*-na</i> (c.f. <i>Phraiso-na</i> in Eteocretan) a simpler explanation. The argument is further strengthened, if we interpreted the stem <i>*kna</i> as 'gift' or 'to give': this is not necessarily what we would expect as part of a personal name. It is not impossible, but I would be cautious with that interpretation.<br /><br />The Phaistos disc sign *17 is completely a different matter. It simply cannot represent Lin AB *01 = DA ('twig'), because the latter already has a good precursor on both the disc (Pha *19) and in Hieroglyphics as well (Hie *09). In all cases, it depicts a branched twig. Linear A symbol *322 is not even worth to compare, because it is extremely rare and a <i>pure logogram</i> in most cases. The only non-logogrammatic use, on HT 11 (the most divergent one) is likely a badly shaped KU sign, nothing more. This is why I did not add it to my <a href="http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_a_qIRGD3pJ0/S_qybQwy6-I/AAAAAAAAAbI/usUguurtDGY/s1600/Linear-A-extended.jpg" rel="nofollow">list</a> of probably phonetic Lin A signs.Andras Zekehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15850805830621290277noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5407840403433424940.post-6934563760867150452010-10-20T12:51:12.274-07:002010-10-20T12:51:12.274-07:00I have a note that the symbol you're referenci...I have a note that the symbol you're referencing for KA from the Phaistos Disk is also A322 from p. 298 of GORILA v. 5 and appears at Khania and Hagia Triada. I don't have the volumes handy to look up more info, but FYI.Kimhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02871562029141632326noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5407840403433424940.post-43293094591320736162010-10-18T22:24:58.705-07:002010-10-18T22:24:58.705-07:00RE: Suggested evolution from glyph to KA
I'm ...RE: Suggested evolution from glyph to KA<br /><br />I'm going to play Devil's Advocate here for a moment, because I'm not sure I buy the KA evolution from the glyphic sieve yet. It seems to me given the evolution from the glyph to the Phaistos Disc, another possible graphic reduction could be simply the DA symbol (AB1) as a lazy shorthand. Flip it on its side (a common symbol evolution, like Semitic bet through to Roman B) and another possible graphic <i>equivalent</i> is KO (AB70).<br /><br />While some of the statistics support your hypothesis, like the prevalence of QE vs. KA, I think there are a few other possibilities that must first be ruled out, and there may be others besides my suggestions.Kimhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02871562029141632326noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5407840403433424940.post-25748093669519277072010-10-18T22:14:53.055-07:002010-10-18T22:14:53.055-07:00RE: PU-RE-KA-NA
I feel that the appearance of PU...RE: PU-RE-KA-NA <br /><br />I feel that the appearance of PU2-RE on several of the Petsofas (PK) artefacts and ZAZb34 may be relevant here. Reparsing this into two 2-symbol sequences PU-RE and KA-NA is an assertion I intend to defend in one of the papers I'm working on right now, so I'll be sure to send you an early copy of it. :>Kimhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02871562029141632326noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5407840403433424940.post-39979532150867553992010-10-18T22:01:47.402-07:002010-10-18T22:01:47.402-07:00First, a tangent on KA, and some observations I...First, a tangent on KA, and some observations I've made over the years that I find intriguing.<br /><br />1. The young (and quite possibly pregnant, with acknowledgment to Dr. Arnott who studies surface anatomy and more in Minoan archaeology and with whom I've had a private correspondence on this topic) priestess from the Theran frescoes is wearing this symbol as an earring. There is a great color photograph of this on p. 47 of the <a href="http://minoan.deaditerranean.com/2010/10/17/santorini-by-christos-doumas/" rel="nofollow">Santorini book</a> I just posted about. This particular fresco has long intrigued me for a long list of thesis-worthy reasons, including what's in that dish and why her ears and lips are so vibrantly red. Henna?<br /><br />2. Egyptian determinative for town (circle with an x rather than a +), mostly because of the symbols prevalence on tablets which seem to indicate place names, like HT97.<br /><br />3. The Chinese symbol for <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E7%94%B0" rel="nofollow">field</a> and the Mycenaean greek <i>KAMA</i> which means field.Kimhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02871562029141632326noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5407840403433424940.post-12258954117073208822010-10-17T20:33:56.252-07:002010-10-17T20:33:56.252-07:00*Pulekna has the air of a typical last name or top...<b>*Pulekna</b> has the air of a typical last name or toponym in Etruscan but I find no cognates. Mind you, Aegean <b>*-na</b> is simply a pertinentive suffix and doesn't in itself mark names specifically. How do you know this is precisely a personal name as opposed to, say, a geographical origin or entire gens?Glen Gordonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02440249042894225949noreply@blogger.com